International Lawyer defending Samvel Karapetyan is interviewed by Harut Sassounian

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The California Courier

Harut Sassounian:  You are an international lawyer, you know better than me, there was no reason whatsoever to arrest your client, Mr. Samvel Karapetyan, with a fake accusation. Pashinyan, who is supposed to be a democratic leader, according to all Western sources, ordered the court and the police to arrest him. Such an order does not fall within his authority, since the courts are supposed to be independent in a democratic country.

Bob Amsterdam:  There’s an ongoing lawsuit to defend his rights. You know, there are ongoing hearings. Unfortunately, everything is somewhat at a standstill prior to the election. And, you know, there’s a clear understanding that once the election is over, these charges will either be dismissed or accelerate. Mr. Pashinyan is no Democrat. He is constantly violating the rule of law. His thugs are engaging in outrageous behavior. As you may be aware, we have one refugee from Artsakh who’s on a hunger strike in detention. We have another individual who had mental problems, who was wrongfully arrested for tearing down a Pashinyan poster, then committed suicide. I mean, it is outrageous. And in the meantime, Mr. Pashinyan attacks voters physically. He appears completely unbalanced, and the idea that this is the poster boy of the West is just an outrage, and I spoke about it today, and I speak about it every day. I’m ashamed of the West’s behavior in all of this. I mean, we can attack Mr. Putin, and we should. He’s making threats he shouldn’t be making. Russian disinformation exists, absolutely, but the West’s behavior is much more shocking than Russia’s, because you can expect certain things from Russia, but to see the West behave in the way it has with false polls, false reporting, over-reporting of election interference, never discussing the shortcomings of a leader who’s lost two wars, is determined to destroy the national church. I mean, the list of Pashinyan’s failings, I don’t have time to go into the list. And this seems ignored by the media in the West.

Harut Sassounian:  Before we return to Mr. Karapetyan, I just wrote an editorial today pointing out that no foreign country should interfere in Armenia’s domestic affairs, whether it’s Russia, the EU, or the U.S. And I also pointed out that in recent days and months, both Vice President Vance, Secretary of State Rubio, and President Trump himself last week, endorsed openly Pashinyan, which is a blatant interference in Armenia’s elections and domestic affairs. And yet we only hear about Russia interfering. We don’t hear anything about the EU, which held this conference in Yerevan last month and the endorsements by the top three leaders of the U.S. Those are also interference in Armenia’s domestic affairs, but we don’t hear a word about it.

Bob Amsterdam:  I don’t know if you’ve seen my white paper on EU interference, which is 150 pages, outlining how the EU is not only engaging in illegal interference, but they don’t even have the power under their own statute to do this. I mean, they’re acting illegally internally in terms of the EU. The behavior of the EU is so undemocratic in so many ways in terms of data protection, in terms of really restricting freedom of speech, and a documented pattern of election interference. And, you know, a bugbear for me has been that in the last three years, I’ve been working to defend children of Christ in Ukraine, where I defend the Ukrainian Orthodox Church against the Ukrainian government, and I’m doing my part, I hope, in helping defend the Armenian Apostolic Church against really unconstitutional and completely outlandish attacks by Pashinyan on the person of the Catholicos, as well as on the structure of the church.

Harut Sassounian:  Is the church also one of your clients?

Bob Amsterdam:  No, the church is not a formal client, but I have met with the Catholicos. I’ve met with His Holiness a number of times, and I’ve pledged my support of the church, and I speak out about it as often as I can, because, quite frankly, it is part of Pashinyan’s program to remove the leader of the church. Mr. Pashinyan will treat it as an endorsement of the removal of the Catholicos, if he wins. I mean, it’s completely outrageous. It’s a complete violation of European law, the European Convention of Human Rights, the constitution of Armenia, the special provisions of law in Armenia that protecting the church. But again, Mr. Pashinyan would take a vote for him as a vote against the church.

Harut Sassounian:  Absolutely. I know that Mr. Karapetyan is your client. Do you have any other clients in Armenia?

Bob Amsterdam:  I have no other clients. Mr. Karapetyan is my client. There is to Mr. Karapetyan nothing more holy and sacred than the church and his commitment to the church. And he certainly asked me, as part of what I do for him, to speak out forcefully for the church. He, as you know, was arrested on the 49th day after the death of his father. His father was a pillar of the church as well. And, you know, the whole situation, in terms of, you know, we have political prisoners in Baku, and it is unthinkable that we have political Christian political prisoners in Yerevan, which as you know, we have.

Harut Sassounian:  That’s correct. But after Karapetyan’s arrest and he was in jail for many months, then now he is under a lockdown, home arrest. How did that come about? Was this due to your and local lawyers’ intervention in court?

Bob Amsterdam:  Yes, it was. Firstly, I was privileged. I did act in court in Armenia for Mr. Karapetyan. It was a great privilege. And I can claim no credit for his release. His local team was more successful than I was in terms of getting him released. I want to say very publicly that the Armenian legal team is as good a group of legal counsel as you could find anywhere in the world. And I was deeply privileged to be part of the team. They had me speak to the court concerning human rights issues, and I jostled with the court for many hours over these issues, because I insisted that I was going to read into the court record, which I did, all of the statements of Mr. Pashinyan concerning His Holiness the Catholicos. And this was over strenuous objections from the judge, but I overcame them and managed to read in these statements and make, I thought, compelling arguments concerning the violations of the European Convention that were involved in the charges against Mr. Karapetyan, as you rightly point out, the misuse of the power of the executive to put forward these charges. And also on a personal level, Mr. Karapetyan, younger than me, but still not a young man, was held in court for months, unable to see his family, unable to go to church, really under severe restrictions. And what I’ll say about my client is he is all about his family. He’s all about his church. And this was very onerous for him. And I gave a speech about this a few days ago, and I said, you know, I’m an old lawyer. I’ve done this kind of work for almost 50 years. And it’s rare for me when I go to court or I go to jail, as I did to meet with my client, I’ve rarely met a man that’s been in jail, incarcerated for months, certainly someone of wealth, who was less phased by the prison and more focused on issues concerning the church and the country. It’s a testament to him and it’s part of the reason I speak out so aggressively on his behalf, because it is pretty rare in today’s society that you meet men of principle, men of character, men of Christ who take all of this religious philosophy and they don’t flaunt it. They don’t lecture people. They live it and they live that commitment. And I sat in a dungeon with him and had him asking a hundred questions about friends in trouble in the church, friends in trouble in other cells. I mean, he’s a man of tremendous character.

Harut Sassounian:  My next two questions, very short. I’m surprised that they’re allowing you to address the court. I don’t think you’re a registered lawyer in Armenia. How did that happen?

Bob Amsterdam:  Well, you are, right. It was a type of registration they give out very rarely, but they gave it to me, and I think it’s simply because I’m old. They probably thought it would be a nice thing to do to an old man. So, really, it was a great honor. I’ve worked on political cases in the CIS all my life, and honestly, from my memory, while I’ve appeared in various tribunals in Russia, I never remember being able to directly address a judge until I was in Armenia. It was really a privilege.

Harut Sassounian:  Well, that’s great. The second short question is, in recent years, anybody who criticizes Pashinyan, if they’re local people, then they’re arrested, tried, and jailed, etc. And even those of us who live outside of Armenia and criticize him, many of us are on a blacklist, not allowed to enter Armenia. I was a little bit intrigued that they’re allowing you, with all your activities in complaining about Pashinyan’s various violations, that they’re allowing you free entry to Armenia.

Bob Amsterdam:  Well, I’ve been surprised as well. And in fact, I first met the Catholicos in New York, by now I guess it’s quite a while ago, and there had been a newspaper article stating that I was to be banned from the country. And I viewed it as fake news and decided to travel myself. I, unfortunately, because of the nature of my history of work, I’m banned from seven or eight countries. I was arrested in Moscow for defending Khodorkovsky. I was deported from Moscow. And I’ve been arrested in a number of other countries. And nothing would surprise me.

Harut Sassounian:  Okay, well, it’s good to hear, but the worst may yet to come. I also recently saw that you filed a lawsuit against the Speaker of the Assembly, Alan Simonian. Is that correct?

Bob Amsterdam:  No, I threatened a lawsuit, but they were, and let me tell you, it’s quite interesting. I was told about three weeks ago by a friend of mine that he had been offered a very lucrative contract to defame me, to spread false news about me. And he said, look, I declined, but they’re coming after you. And then sure enough, a few days later, there were all sorts of commentary about me having a relationship to Mr. Epstein. And what had happened with Mr. Epstein was he had a sum of money that belonged to a potential African client of mine. And I met with him 10 years ago. No one really knew about who he was or what he was, other than he was wealthy and fabulously connected, and he was, in fact, holding this individual’s money. So I was asked to meet him, which I did. In the meeting, we discussed this African client, and then he raised the issue of his problems in Florida. And, you know, to be very frank, I said to him that it was not an area, sex crimes was not an area that I practiced in. And that I had young women, children, daughters, and this was just nothing I would ever consider, thank you very much. And left. And to be fair, I think I’m one of the few that has declined the guy, because a lot of very senior lawyers took him on. So after I declined him, nothing came of it until they published that, you know, there had been some exchange of letters relating to another client. And then Pashinyan turns this into me allegedly acting for the guy. And then, amazingly, the Azeri press has picked it up, I think on the direct request of the Pashinyan people. And it just shows you how closely they’re working together.

Harut Sassounian:  Going back to Mr. Karapetyan’s case, I’m not a lawyer, but I’ve been following as an investigative journalist the European Court of Human Rights [ECHR] for the past 30-40 years. And I know a lot about the procedures. And at some point I read an article mentioning that you have taken the Karapetyan’s case to the European Court of Human Rights. Is that correct?

Bob Amsterdam:  No, it’s not. We have not taken, I have not, another lawyer, I believe, has raised some issues at the ECHR relating to pretrial detention. But I have not. And I don’t want to get into the details of it because it’s another lawyer that’s been acting.

Harut Sassounian:  Isn’t that a good idea? I know the requirements, you have to go to a local court, which you already have, and then go to the Court of Appeals locally, and then if they’re denied both places, then you can go to the European Court. Is that something to consider and file on an emergency basis?

Bob Amsterdam:  Firstly, nothing gets done at the ECHR on an emergency basis. I was involved in a tragic case of a young Armenian lawyer that I was one of the lawyers trying to assist with, who had been brutally treated by the Putin regime. And he had AIDS, he was denied medicine. It was a terrible case. And we only got him out, I think, after the fourth try before the emergency procedure, when he was already dying. Emergency procedures are not available under Rule 39. Extraordinary difficult to get. And if you don’t get the emergency procedure, unless you’re given, there’s a new structure now, but even with the new structure, and if you get a speedy hearing, it still takes a tremendous amount of time. But there is a proceeding, I believe, relating to pretrial detention, but it’s not in our hands, and I wanna be cautious commenting on the activities of another lawyer.

Harut Sassounian:  Okay. The lawyer you mentioned in Russia, I think you said an Armenian lawyer in Russia. Yes. When was this? I’ve never heard of this case.

Bob Amsterdam:  It’s a case involving Yukos Oil. It was a very big case 20 years ago in Russia that I was involved in. I was acting for the owner of Yukos, an individual named Mikhail Khodorovsky, and his general counsel, a very brave, heroic young Armenian lawyer, was basically tortured by the Russians because he would not fabricate evidence against Khodorovsky.

Harut Sassounian:  Do you remember Armenian lawyer’s last name?

Bob Amsterdam:  Not off the top of my head. It’s been 20 years. Well, I should know it. It’s a famous case. But I’ll check. I mean, he was a friend of mine. And it was a terrible tragedy, and what he went through, no animals should live through. His name was Vasily Alexanian.

Harut Sassounian:  I will look into it, and it sounds very interesting and, of course, tragic at the same time.

Bob Amsterdam:  I mean, he was a Russian lawyer of Armenian descent. And as you know, Moscow has a massive two million Armenians, something incredible.

Harut Sassounian:  That’s correct. So where are we now on the legal case of Mr. Karapetyan. He is under house arrest Has there been an appeal filed to get him out?

Bob Amsterdam:  There are appeals pending. There are processes pending. But Pashinyan has won to the extent that he’s forced Karapetyan, a political rival, to stay at his home during an election. As you know, in Armenia, elections are often decided by face-to-face campaigning. And Mr. Karapetyan has had both hands and his legs tied behind his back. His nephew, Narek Karapetyan, has been working 24/7, doing everything he can to assist and will, in fact, does in fact, lead the ticket. Narek himself is a very successful and wildly intelligent businessman. Again, very devoted to the church, very devoted to the country, and is a superb candidate. And Narek has been accused and defamed. They have tried to argue that he is a Russian national, which he is not. And they’ve thrown everything at him. And they’ve thrown everything at “Strong Armenia.” I expect, I think there was a raid today on “Strong Armenia.” I expect more absolutely bogus charges to come up until the election because I truly believe Pashinyan knows his days are numbered.

Harut Sassounian:  Is there a local legal team defending the accusations against Narek, or are you involved in it?

Bob Amsterdam:  No, no, there are no formal, to my knowledge, there are no formal charges. I think there’s an investigation of sorts, but I think Narek has made it very clear that there’s no basis for these allegations of Russian citizenship.

Harut Sassounian:  It’s the same sad story. They accuse everybody. They make fake recordings. They’ve put in jail dozens of people from opposition parties supposedly for paying bribes for potential voters. I wrote in my column last week that who would be foolish enough to pay a bribe to anybody — the first arrest was a couple of months ago, which is months before the election. Even if I were to think about paying a bribe, I wouldn’t pay a bribe three months in advance, not knowing what that guy will do three months later. It’s so far-fetched, preposterous, the accusation, and then not a single person from Pashinyan’s party is arrested for offering a bribe to anybody. I’m sure they’re doing a lot of those things. They violate the election laws in Armenia. They bring out children from school and teachers during the day when they’re supposed to be in school and no action is taken against his party. I remember three years ago, when there was an election for mayor of Yerevan, there was an investigation done by a very good investigative team in Armenia. And they found out that a lot of the campaign donations were made under fake names, and that they traced it down to the real person whose money was used, and that was presented to the court, but the court refused to take action on this blatant violation of election laws. So that’s the world we’re living in, unfortunately, and the EU and the US, for their own self-interest, not for Armenia’s interest, are blindly defending Pashinyan because they’re….

Bob Amsterdam:  I’ve been involved in many, many elections. I’ve never seen one which was conducted over the heads of the people of the country. There is no question — the EU does not give a damn about Armenia. They are viewing this as a contest of strength with Russia. And what I say to people, day in and day out, is could you please look at a map before you suggest that that schmuck Pashinyan invites Zelensky to Armenia? Look at a map. Why would you infuriate Putin? I’m not saying that you favor Russia. I’m saying have a multipolar foreign policy, but there’s no reason to antagonize them needlessly. Russia is basically a major power. Why would you do that? That’s like inviting Hillary Clinton to address something in Armenia. They wouldn’t invite Hillary Clinton. Don’t invite Zelensky. It’s ridiculous.

Harut Sassounian:  And then, again, Pashinyan, schmuck is a friendly term for the way he behaves. He has the temerity to have the leader of Azerbaijan address the EU conference in Yerevan and demand that they come to Baku for their next little soiree. And Pashinyan was silent when Aliyev was making that public accusation in front of all the European leaders, but he is very quick to attack one of his own Armenian citizens whenever they criticize him, but never a word to criticize Aliyev or Erdogan.

Bob Amsterdam:  Well, let’s be very clear. I have, again, and I’ve only been doing this for 50 years, I cannot believe that Pashinyan does not even pretend to act on behalf of the hostages in Baku. Every time I go to Armenia, I tell people, I’m ashamed of them. I say, where are the pictures of the hostages held in Baku? Where are they? Israel had hostages. You could not go anywhere without seeing pictures of the hostages. Armenia has hostages. You can’t see a picture of them. And these people are left to fight for themselves. And as you know, Ruben issued a very strong statement a few days ago, all but condemning Pashinyan, in fact, condemning Pashinyan. And again, the West says nothing. The West does nothing. And we allow this macabre game to go on where the head of state, who has a constitutional duty to protect his citizens, keeps them imprisoned because he’s afraid of what would happen if they came out, because they would spill the beans on his behavior.

Harut Sassounian:  Well, that’s why it’s not just worse than doing nothing to release them. He said and done things to make sure that they get convicted by the Baku court. I remember a couple of years ago at a press conference, Pashinyan, without even being asked a question by a journalist, he volunteered the following words. He said, who sent Vardanyan to Nagorno-Karabakh? What was the purpose? What was the mission? Why was he sent? So he’s giving ammunition to the court as if they needed more ammunition to put all the people in prison.

Bob Amsterdam:  And as you know, that was not a court. That was a military tribunal that had no right to try Ruben. So it’s really just outrage upon outrage.

Harut Sassounian:  Well, I know you’ve had a very busy and long day, and I appreciate very much that you made the time to speak with me.